i still dnt see the need to change the paladin king lol

Elaborate more. Change it in what respect? From what stimulus? How?

ahaha

the whole thing... why didnt u leave them as they were but replace the tamerlane... for the archers or something........... its poointless changes and it just makes it harder to edit in future.........

First off. I'm not doing the changes. Is_this_my_name has made all changes to 2011 so far. I am just a guy suggesting possible changes in an effort to open up a discussion. Second. It's obvious that part of the map was changed so people did not buy the wrong thing via their kings getting tangled up, which has happened to me before many a time. Not pointless and not hard to change again. Plus, who's really going to change it anyways? No one plays 10th and I see classic only in 1v1s. They only play gold so that's why it's best just to care about this map the most because it is the most utilitarian decision and try to make the best changes possible so even more people will play it and will be satisfied. If you're concerned about changes to the layout of the map I'd be more concerned about how the top store got smaller.

Let us talk about something more relevant. Subo at 8. What do you think? Yes/No and why? Read my post above. Zanchy you mentioned in a previous post that Subo should be 6 kings but that is just ludicrous. He would become the new Henry and a lot of civilizations would be at a disadvantage.

On a different note: I like the idea of making a villager 4 kings because no one buys it now unless you are the Persians. I actually think the Persians should either a) have to pay the full 6 for a villager, b) not be able to buy any castles and a villager at 4, or c) keep it the way it used to be (i.e. villager for 6 and they can buy two castles). Someone did mention that if you were Huns you could just get a villager and make Paladins for another Henry though so maybe 4 kings is too cheap. However, you did reduce the starting stone amount so they wouldn't be able to go full pop for awhile at least. ... I forgot huns get full pop though. 11

Persian really needs to be able to buy 2 castles, otherwise, he gets owned by any civ.

6 kings for Persian vill, good idea, 4 for other civs, i think it's a bad idea, because when i get civs like turks, teuts or chinese, i like buying a vill, to make cav archer and bombard towers. 5 for other civs is good.


Subo should stay 7 kings, he can hit and run on martels, but when 160 martels get in your base, even with 200 subos, you cant resist.


I'd like to add a suggestion : make extra hp for castles buyable, like 1 king for 500 hp, can be helpful sometimes.

^^Persians can buy two castles now... since when can't they buy two castles?

Persians have a restriction on the amount of stone they get in 2011 and 2012 so if it's moved back to 6 kings the restriction would need to be removed. You're thinking of 2012 when you refer to 4 kings for a villager. The bombard towers do provide a big advantage. Two solutions: Either a) like you said make the villie 5 kings for civs that get bombards or b) place a stone restriction on these civilizations as well.

Subo will stay at 7. And btw you'll live 200 Subo against 160 Martel if you buy castles and fill em up.

Lastly, not a bad idea. I'm not sure about 500 hp though. I don't think there's enough room to add in this buy. I'm probably wrong though and could get it to work if I wanted. Anywho, I'm going to make the bombard towers in the back of the base undead and I've already added two more at the front of everyone's pyramid that will be destroyable.

The main thread for scenario design of 2012 is actually in the map pack section. 2012 is rated now but there's a lag issue in the beginning of every game which causes it to freeze sometimes due to the combination of ice+shallows on the map. So far I've already changed the terrain to mitigate this but I might as well do other things at the same time. Should be done by September hopefully.

In your suggestions

5 kings for civs that get bombards looks good to me

Making the two bbt undead will encourage camping I think, and harder to rush than it is already.
I find camping is already quite easy.

tbh some civs are too weak now, the idea was that we get rid of henry and stuff so that its rcb again !! but goths need another king rly, japs too, maya need 2 more....

I'm not doing anymore edits. I've decided this game isn't worth the time.

Zanchy haven't you made maps before? You should look at what I did for 2012 and add things to it to make it better.

You don't necessarily have to give civs more kings to make them better you could give them blacksmith upgrades, additional units at the beginning, another archery range, ... something like that. In 2012 Mayans have three kings at the beginning. It's fairly easy to get the 9 archers of the eyes, don't buy any castles, then mass produce to win at cross and then mid to go instant robin.

Plus don't Mayans beat every other archer civ? ... except maybe brits because of the range.

Hey, I'll tell you my opinion.

- Civ kings are probably ok now (maybe you shouldn't remove one king from China).
- You should move HG instead of giving HP, cos the problem is that some spots (also depend on civs) gets their HG more damaged by towers than others. Extra HP does not solve this.
- Tamer and Belsar should be removed forever.
- Don't remove monks, just disable making them - some players gonna lose kings because they doesn't know that.
- Walls to remove heystacks should be 30000 HP in my opinion - I used to destore it with Harolds to get opponent's pyr ect. I mean there should be a way for opponent how to destore it, but it should be same hard for him as destoring all castles placed here.
- Very important thing - change gen back to skrim, units are more aggressive to gen. When it was skrim units shot him only when any other unit wasn't in range. Now they shot gen with higher priority than some other units in their range which they shouldn't.

-give every civ 1 more king and raise the price of all heroes up to william by 1 at top
- Never! Many kings only make problems. Players spend time on counting them and moving them which shouldn't waste their time. Also I think there should be a counter somewhere how many kings players have.
-add full population buyable
- Cool! Add it!
-be able to buy spies, or just see enemies spawn
- See spawn by buying current Spies for two kings. Don't add global Spies, or give it high price (f.e. 12 kings) so only player with Harold or Middle and lot of kings can buy it.
-add missionary and or a monastery and or monk techs buyable at right store
Mmm can be. But the price should be 2 or 3 kings.
-add ap buyable for ur spawn
100% Yes! And as fast as it is possible! Or better idea is to add extra HP/AP instead of "DoubleHero". F. e. you have bought Robin already and you want to have stronger Robins. So you put 5 top store kings to buy it again and gain powerups for him. But we gotta make those powerups real and consider all price problems that will appear because of it. F.e. Briton powered Robins can't beat Khans and should tie with Martels, Teo and Williams will be too weak, and many more...
-still get kings for razes past 20
Never. Too much cheap kings on the map for imped huns or persian, easy "Razes feed" when someone have ville and much more. It would completely change the map. There is an idea to make max Raz 24 instead of 20 bc of lot of buildings in center, bude never more than 24.

I'd suggest my own changes, but I don't have enough time right now. I'll write it up later.

Remove the damn genitour or make it cost much more
it is way overpowered for 2 kings

First of all thanks for the suggestions; Some of them will make 2012 a better map. I don't think isthismyname plans to update 2011 again so you might have to wait until 2012 is redone. Problem is I ran into a freezing issue when the game starts and I've tried everything people can think of to fix it but it's still there so I have to remake the map more or less from scratch. It literally won't be until 2012 until it's finished.
Starting Number of Kings Changes from 2011 in 2012:

a) Aztecs: 3 extra kings like Celts, Vikes, Franks but they get elite
b) Brits: total of 2 kings but they get no king for 50 kills
c) Teuts: +1 king so they get 3 extra like other infantry civs
d) Chinese: +1 king so they're back to 2 extra kings like in 2010
e) Byz: -1 king for a total of 4, no keeps like in 2011
f) Mayans: +1 king for a total of 2
g) Mongols: +1 king for a total of 3
h) Spanish: +1 king for a total of 2
i) Turks: 2 kings total and got rid of no king for 100 kills (balanced enough as is)

No. Belisarius or Tamerlane will not be removed from 2012. Beli has the add hp option increased to 125 and Tamerlane has a larger power-up area in mid + I'm going to slightly increase the rate at which Tamerlane powers up. No one is going to lose any kings. It's designed so you don't. There's that piece of wall that stays there until monks are allowed and you lose no kings via producing monks from the Monastery. I may consider restricting the number of monks people can have though and/or some of the monk techs (e.g. +3 conversion range, units more resistant to conversion) This is one I'll probably do. I'll move them a couple squares closer for ****s n gigs. The added hp is fine though. Your opponent is an **** if he didn't bring a group of haralds to the back of his base in time to stop you. Most people have a castle there that you can destroy; much more efficient. I'm going to leave the wall pieces undead in 2012. The damn genitour is quite annoying isn't he. As of right now the best way to deal with the genitour in 2011 is to go the villager route and make monks and research monk techs. Although, I know 2011 can be a little bit of a camping fest at times and the best way to deal with that varies game by game. The genitour is 4 kings in 2012 and you have the option to get two skirms for two kings. I know I'm not going to do this. If anything I'm going to block off everything Subo and after (+ maybe Beli) until 20 mins in to encourage more Robin, Charlemagne, Henry, and Archers of the eyes. The king counter is an interesting idea but I'm not sure if I'd do it. Part of the challenge is paying attention to your strategy/units and having the macro skills to continuously transfer your kings + most good people can count them easily enough by highlighting them all. I don't think I'm going to add this. You can easily buy a villager for full pop now. If anything related to more pop I'm going to give people some sort of bonus for going double robin, double subo, etc. Yeah I'll probably just incorporate the see the enemies spawn part of it into the current spies but I doubt I'll add Global Spies. I don't know why he posted this because you can build a monastery and monks with a villager currently and research all of the available monk techs. I forgot about this one. I need to think about it. I did have an add hp/ap buy in a version called Dragon for awhile available at the Super Store and people didn't like it...might be why it got removed from CB Auto Final. Yeah I said the same thing awhile back in this thread.

Long post. You should look at the 2012 thread in the map pack section and the 2012 suggestions thread in the scenario design section so we can discuss more.

I'll reply to this part 1st.
Let's 1st review 2011 vers bonuses.
This is in my opinion quite balanced. But here is my offer for better balance. I don't like giving imp or making "no king for ... kills" penalty. Because imp is a part of store and it should be on consideration of every player if he want to buy it somehow. On the other hand jaguars and berseks are almost useless so I can accept it, but I don't like byzant imp at all. So I'll make two variantes - full with or full without imp.

Aztecs: 6 kings OR 5 kings and Elite
Britons: 2 kings, no limites (maybe remove one range tech or something but no kill limites - it's bull****)
Byzantines: 5 kings OR 3 kings and Elite
Celts: 5 kings (never elite, they are like "better Huns" with elite)
Franks: 5 kings OR 3 kings and Elite
Goths: 5 kings OR 3 kings and Elite
Huns: 4 kings (I'd even consider 3 kings but it's maybe cos I play Huns very well)
Chinese: 4 kings
Japanese: 4 kings
Koreans: 1 kings, -1000 stone, -40 pop
Mayans: 2 kings
Mongols: 2 kings
Persians: 2 kings, -40 pop, 4 castle max, - some amount of stone for some amount of time
Saracens: 3 kings (maybe add some limites but don't remove kings)
Spanish: 2 kings
Teutons: 4 kings
Turks: 1 king, -some stone OR disable bombard towers (Turks can't have -40 pop bonus because they lose against other ranged civs with it - Spans for example in late game, they should tie with those civs and it should be about Turk player skills not about limites. I solve this by giving them -1 king and removing kills limit, much better solution.)
Vikings: 6 kings OR 5 kings and Elite

a) I'm not sure how did you mean that. Anyways Vikes and Aztec should have better bonus than Celts and Franks.
b) Brits: 2 kings are ok, but I don't think there should be kills limit. Brits are weak at start and they are not overpowdered right now in 2011. They can't full their towers as well as maya and reach Robin by the time other civs get subo or Martel, so why should we punish them? Also there should be a good conter vs mamelukes on maps.
c) Teuts: No. Teutons are much stronger civ than Celts or Franks. The problem is many noobs don't know how to play them. They can fight mamelukes, cataphars, Char., sheild vs Martel and fill towers better than archer civs - don't overpoweder them.
d) Chinese: Cool. They are superweak with no imp.
e) Byz: Cool. Byz were too strong with imp.
f) Mayans: Cool. They were too weak.
g) Mongols: No, mongols are extremly good with imp and 8 castles. They can play with no hero for a while when other civs got sub or Martel already. Also they have the best Subo and Khan on the map, can go middle or global and can fight every unique unit on map. They can play almost any strategy in late game so it's better not to help them on start.
h) Spanish: Cool. They should be better at start than mongols cos with 200 vs 200 imped mongs easily win.
i) Turks: One king with no limit and no pop limit looks like a better way.

a) I just meant they get elite jaguar units (tech researched)
b) agreed no kill limit
c) the problem is everyone runs from teuts (well at least smart people) just like people run from eles ... I agree that 5 kings is a bit much because if you have teuts vs any other infantry civ teuts can steam roll them.
d) yeah Chinese never should've been downgraded in 2011...I'm not sure why Is_this_my_name decided to do that...they do rape the pyramid though. =D
e) Byz are strong indeed. I think 4 kings suits them...hell maybe even three.
f) ...
g) mongols ...
h) spanish and mongols should probably just be the same amount.
i) no kill limit for sure...I need to look into pop limits

no matter what though you can still get really screwed if you're say chinese vs koreans... well wait... I guess you could go the villie route and produce cavalry backed by w/e... but for instance any infantry civ other than teuts against byz blows.

I need to come up with a concrete list of things I plan to change in 2012 and get feedback on those ideas soon. I never considered winter break for editing this so it'd be nice to have an idea of what I plan to change done by then.

A compensating strategy at the cross when you're say japs vs byz is to maybe give japs 3 kings down below if byz still has 3/4 of his watch towers still up after 15 mins or so. You could do this for all four of the crosses. It wouldn't have to be kings either it could be ... free villager? imperial age? kings seems like it's the better way to go though. Then at least you'd be 3.5 kings for sure 15 mins in and could possibly be robin with 6 razes total.

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I'm probably going to make the bombard towers undead in mid for the first 10 or so minutes as well to help balance it out.