So if eot turn around and demand europe being in without a democratic mandate and to also be immune to veto, what is your rebuttal to that? There is a clear disconnect in the arguments being presented. Nobody is arguing that cba hero isn't the most played casual map, that would be lunacy. We are arguing that mirror side v side setting is NOT that common and does not deserve some sanctified spot on a pedestal when the clans in the tournament generally don't like that setting.
I could name you more than 50 active players of mirror side vs side, from a decent level, to a very good level, there are countless games played in the last 3/4 years, maybe about 4k ?, How many Europe games? , 100, and could be exaggerating, how many players of Europe (new) ?, 3,4 and could be exaggerating.
Nobody said that CBA Hero has to be excluded, if at least two clans want a map it should be included, just not protected.
The original TIW came about as a result of activity in random ladder, it was designed as an all round tournament. This TIW was brought about by two all round wars between xcs and dy/eot.
No, say things as they are.
xCs claimed that they were the best in CS because they dominated the most popular map (CBA HERO), after beating a highly respected CB team, 3-0 In hero.
Then, Eot, Zanchy, went out to challenge them on other maps, including the CBS, both clans were swept into CBS 3-0.
It all started with CBA Hero, and ended in a war of clans, with maps that nobody cared about, and that xCs had forced to learn, to defeat them, not for pleasure.
I have no problem with cba being picked vs rb just like I have no problem with cba hero being in each round however I dont want to see a immune on a certain map just because people prefer to **** points on it
King stop repeating yourself, and stop contradicting yourself also. Wait for the vote now, we'll all seen your input.
Some interesting observations:
-Everybody wants xCs to play
-xCs playing seems to depend on the voting system which we are discussing
-if we vote now, without xcs, then CBA hero is likely not to get voted in
-gg TiW
TIW 2015/2016 emerged from the great competitiveness in the random ladder.
TIW 2020 emerged from the great competitiveness in CBA Hero / CBA, it's simple my friend.
Well, I see that everyone sees CBA Hero as a super difficult map, in which xCs / IC are the only ones who know how to play.
It is useless to continue in this discussion, want to go to a "democratic vote", where voters dont currently represent (or dont want) the community.
CB'S clans arent interested in TIW, since 90% of maps are maps unknown to them, as simple as that.
I don't get your point honestly, you've had some good input on this thead and have been one of the few to stay on topic, but this line of discussion is honestly confusing to me.
First of all there is no mandate that tiw has to represent the lobby. Originally it's goal was to promote variety, but now I think it's honestly to have one last fun clan tournie as new activity seems unlikely on this niche part of a 20 yr old game.
Every clan participating gets an equal say, cba, hero and other cbs will definitely be involved as they have been in previous tiws.
The mandate will be set by the votes, which by definition cannot be unfair. Forcing sometging the majority don't want in, is by definition unfair (although this is moot because I'm pretty sure cba and hero at least all be involved..)
What exactly is the issue? What am I missing?
I mean id love to see europe in too, and I think the highest quality games from previous tiws were europe matches, but I'm not gonna lose sleep if it doesn't get voted in, since it would be unfair to force it in just because I want it.
This idea that random hero players are gonna band together to play a clan tournament is not realistic. They don't want to play mirror, they just play it casually.
I'm not talking about random player heroes, remember that I mention to you that there are more than 50 active mirror players.
I guess you don't know, because you just don't care, np
I'm not talking about random player heroes, remember that I mention to you that there are more than 50 active mirror players.
I guess you don't know, because you just don't care, np
Are these '50 active mirror players' even gonna sign up to TIW or have any interest? If so, why don't they sign a team up, then they will have a vote on the maps and settings?
I guess my point is; CB maps will be included, and if what you're saying represents the majority of clans, that's how it will be when voting takes place, so what is it you're debating against exactly? As far as i can tell, the goal is to get a map pool that represents the clans involved in TIW overall, rather than the lobby.. and even if it's goal was to represent the lobby then we should be focusing on including cba hero random, rather than mirror. Are you against democratically voting the settings/maps because you're worried CB's wont be included? If that's the case why don't you wait till voting has taken place to express your concern as this is likely a complete non issue (if cb's are voted in then all this debate is for nothing)? Or is there some other problem i'm not seeing? I think for this debate to continue, you have to be clear regarding exactly what the problem you're trying to express is, and then hopefully we can work towards some kind of resolution that makes everyone happy, there seems to be a lot of confusion ATM about what people are actually debating.
1v1: IC Choose Smosh/ S1l3nt Choose Khanz, Random decider.
2v2: IC Choose Veteranz, S1l3nt Choose CBA Hero (Inmmunity but cant choose it anymore), Random decider
3v3/4v4: IC Choose CBA, CBA Hero(Inmmunity), / S1lent Veto CBA.
Then IC Choose RCB S1l3nt Veto RCB, then IC Choose Bacteria.
S1l3nt Cant choose CBA Hero again, but choose then Lustful,Desert( Inmmunity)
IC Veto Lustful, then S1l3nt choose Nova.
IC Veto Nova, then S1l3nt choose Europe.
Random decider: x4 CBA Hero, x2 CBA, RCBx1, x1 5 Bloods, x1 Lustful,x1 CBX
both clans have 1 veto left to use
There is the variety with a random example
For me to win, I have to win the maps that he chooses too
1v1: IC Choose Smosh/ S1l3nt Choose Khanz, Random decider.
2v2: IC Choose Veteranz, S1l3nt Choose CBA Hero (Inmmunity but cant choose anymore), Random decider
3v3/4v4: IC Choose CBA, CBA Hero(Inmmunity), / S1lent Veto CBA.
Then IC Choose RCB S1l3nt Veto RCB, then IC Choose Bacteria.
S1l3nt Cant choose CBA Hero again, but choose then Lustful,Desert( Inmmunity)
IC Veto Lustful, then S1l3nt choose Nova.
IC Veto Nova, then S1l3nt choose Europe.
Random decider: x4 CBA Hero, x2 CBA, RCBx1, x1 5 Bloods, x1 Lustful,x1 CBX
There is the variety with a random example
For me to win, I have to win the maps that he chooses too
Then surely that just means the clan isn't good enough all round to win? If you only have CBA/Hero in the bank, then i don't feel you deserve to win the set (but if the community decide this is how it should be, then so be it). Like i said, if the votes are democratic, it will represent the clans playing. Or are you suggesting we should make a tournament every clan can win regardless of the variety of maps they play? Are you suggesting a clan should be able to win a set by only winning CBA/Hero?
To try to sum up; are you saying the issue is that even if hero, and cba is involved in the map picks, you feel CBA/Hero should play a more significant part in the tournament? We really need to nail down what you're arguing to a statement so we can properly debate it, instead of just spinning our wheels and going nowhere.
Vetos aren't set in stone either, we could always reduce/remove them if it would help and it's what clans involved want.
Also army was trolling w/ desert immunity FYI (told me himself)
Nobody said that CBA Hero has to be excluded, if at least two clans want a map it should be included, just not protected.
The original TIW came about as a result of activity in random ladder, it was designed as an all round tournament. This TIW was brought about by two all round wars between xcs and dy/eot.
No, say things as they are.
xCs claimed that they were the best in CS because they dominated the most popular map (CBA HERO), after beating a highly respected CB team, 3-0 In hero.
Then, Eot, Zanchy, went out to challenge them on other maps, including the CBS, both clans were swept into CBS 3-0.
It all started with CBA Hero, and ended in a war of clans, with maps that nobody cared about, and that xCs had forced to learn, to defeat them, not for pleasure.
TIW 2015/2016 emerged from the great competitiveness in the random ladder.
TIW 2020 emerged from the great competitiveness in CBA Hero / CBA, it's simple my friend.
Well, I see that everyone sees CBA Hero as a super difficult map, in which xCs / IC are the only ones who know how to play.
It is useless to continue in this discussion, want to go to a "democratic vote", where voters dont currently represent (or dont want) the community.
CB'S clans arent interested in TIW, since 90% of maps are maps unknown to them, as simple as that.
Some interesting observations:
-Everybody wants xCs to play
-xCs playing seems to depend on the voting system which we are discussing
-if we vote now, without xcs, then CBA hero is likely not to get voted in
-gg TiW
TIW 2015/2016 emerged from the great competitiveness in the random ladder.
TIW 2020 emerged from the great competitiveness in CBA Hero / CBA, it's simple my friend.
Well, I see that everyone sees CBA Hero as a super difficult map, in which xCs / IC are the only ones who know how to play.
It is useless to continue in this discussion, want to go to a "democratic vote", where voters dont currently represent (or dont want) the community.
CB'S clans arent interested in TIW, since 90% of maps are maps unknown to them, as simple as that.
First of all there is no mandate that tiw has to represent the lobby. Originally it's goal was to promote variety, but now I think it's honestly to have one last fun clan tournie as new activity seems unlikely on this niche part of a 20 yr old game.
Every clan participating gets an equal say, cba, hero and other cbs will definitely be involved as they have been in previous tiws.
The mandate will be set by the votes, which by definition cannot be unfair. Forcing sometging the majority don't want in, is by definition unfair (although this is moot because I'm pretty sure cba and hero at least all be involved..)
What exactly is the issue? What am I missing?
I mean id love to see europe in too, and I think the highest quality games from previous tiws were europe matches, but I'm not gonna lose sleep if it doesn't get voted in, since it would be unfair to force it in just because I want it.
You dont know what clans will vote for and you have no idea what the results will be so how do you know the %
Same clans, Same players?
What do you think will happen?
I guess you don't know, because you just don't care, np
Same clans, Same players?
What do you think will happen?
CBA and Hero will almost definitely be in this TIW, so i'm not understanding the issue?
I guess you don't know, because you just don't care, np
I guess my point is; CB maps will be included, and if what you're saying represents the majority of clans, that's how it will be when voting takes place, so what is it you're debating against exactly? As far as i can tell, the goal is to get a map pool that represents the clans involved in TIW overall, rather than the lobby.. and even if it's goal was to represent the lobby then we should be focusing on including cba hero random, rather than mirror. Are you against democratically voting the settings/maps because you're worried CB's wont be included? If that's the case why don't you wait till voting has taken place to express your concern as this is likely a complete non issue (if cb's are voted in then all this debate is for nothing)? Or is there some other problem i'm not seeing? I think for this debate to continue, you have to be clear regarding exactly what the problem you're trying to express is, and then hopefully we can work towards some kind of resolution that makes everyone happy, there seems to be a lot of confusion ATM about what people are actually debating.
3 vetoes, without immunity (only CBA Hero /Desert that can be used only once)
Pack decider: x4 CBA Hero, x2 CBA, RCBx1, x1 5 Bloods, x1 Lustful,x1 CBX
1v1: IC Choose Smosh/ S1l3nt Choose Khanz, Random decider.
2v2: IC Choose Veteranz, S1l3nt Choose CBA Hero (Inmmunity but cant choose it anymore), Random decider
3v3/4v4: IC Choose CBA, CBA Hero(Inmmunity), / S1lent Veto CBA.
Then IC Choose RCB S1l3nt Veto RCB, then IC Choose Bacteria.
S1l3nt Cant choose CBA Hero again, but choose then Lustful,Desert( Inmmunity)
IC Veto Lustful, then S1l3nt choose Nova.
IC Veto Nova, then S1l3nt choose Europe.
Random decider: x4 CBA Hero, x2 CBA, RCBx1, x1 5 Bloods, x1 Lustful,x1 CBX
both clans have 1 veto left to use
There is the variety with a random example
For me to win, I have to win the maps that he chooses too
3 vetoes, without immunity (only CBA Hero /Desert that can be used only once)
Pack decider: x4 CBA Hero, x2 CBA, RCBx1, x1 5 Bloods, x1 Lustful,x1 CBX
1v1: IC Choose Smosh/ S1l3nt Choose Khanz, Random decider.
2v2: IC Choose Veteranz, S1l3nt Choose CBA Hero (Inmmunity but cant choose anymore), Random decider
3v3/4v4: IC Choose CBA, CBA Hero(Inmmunity), / S1lent Veto CBA.
Then IC Choose RCB S1l3nt Veto RCB, then IC Choose Bacteria.
S1l3nt Cant choose CBA Hero again, but choose then Lustful,Desert( Inmmunity)
IC Veto Lustful, then S1l3nt choose Nova.
IC Veto Nova, then S1l3nt choose Europe.
Random decider: x4 CBA Hero, x2 CBA, RCBx1, x1 5 Bloods, x1 Lustful,x1 CBX
There is the variety with a random example
For me to win, I have to win the maps that he chooses too
To try to sum up; are you saying the issue is that even if hero, and cba is involved in the map picks, you feel CBA/Hero should play a more significant part in the tournament? We really need to nail down what you're arguing to a statement so we can properly debate it, instead of just spinning our wheels and going nowhere.
Vetos aren't set in stone either, we could always reduce/remove them if it would help and it's what clans involved want.
Also army was trolling w/ desert immunity FYI (told me himself)
Same clans, Same players?
What do you think will happen?
So cba will be involved if its the clans and players unless ic and xcs wont vote for it